Willeyum ov Ockum must hav been a terribul spellur.

Posted By: Fact totum

Posted By: Udoboy

In the creation of the universe, you have a supernatural event

So the universe is unnatural

so's your face!

So... How's everybody? It's been a while. I realize we're in the religious thread, but I also would like to have discussions here, so I figured this would be a good place to start. It feels weird being back; Who remembers me? Lol

Tyler Durden: Listen to me! You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen.

Narrator: It isn't?

Tyler Durden: We don't need him!

Actually, the God of the Bible (Old Testament) is not particularly "good" at all. He's selfish and petulant at best; downright cruel and vindictive at worst.

Thanks for the welcome, Cody. As for Udo, I completely agree. I mean, for Christ's sake (yes, irony intended), in 2 Kings god actually sent 2 bears to maul 40 children for the sole offense of making fun of a bald guy's head. Seems a little harsh to me... But then again it's all made up anyway.

Actually, there's strong evidence that Jehovah did not "create" Lucifer, but instead Lucifer is actually a different god, and Jehovah was merely attempting to stage a coup amongst the gods and take all the glory unto Himself. Yahweh elohim means "the lord of the gods" and not "the lord god" as is commonly mistranslated.

It's not a freak occurrence. There's an order to all of it.

Posted By: Cody56

And now you're telling me that a freak occurrence brought all of this matter into being by chance? An all powerful being sounds more believable than that.

I don't see why this is easier to believe.

Well, it all started in 15,641,354,224 B.C. when, in an alternate universe, a kzurmaton accidentally struck a jwarfth, ripping open the space-time continuum, and everything from several (smaller) universes flowed into this one.

Posted By: Cody56

Posted By: nyarfdude

It's not a freak occurrence. There's an order to all of it.

Ok, then tell me how all of this matter came into existence.

I don't know that "God did it" is any more credible an answer than "we don't really know."

Trance is spot on. And I have to admit; I'm not a full atheist. I'm an agnostic atheist. I do admit that nothing of this nature can be proven completely false or true. However, neither can the existence of flying invisible unicorns. It doesn't mean that I believe in them.
As for this argument:

Posted By: Cody56

Think about it this way, if there is a God, do you really want to spend an eternity in Hell?

There are several things wrong with this argument (also known as Pascal's Wager), but I shall address only two:

1) One cannot simply will oneself to believe something that is evidently false to them.
2) More importantly, according to the Christian belief, blind unquestioning faith is needed in order to get into heaven. Trying to "trick" god in order to get to heaven would be useless if he truly does exist, for it wouldn't be real belief.
------
And one other thing for you to think about, Cody: Jesus condemns all those who do not accept him as the son of god and worship him. According to this, anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is God is going to go to hell. Now there's something inherently wrong here: Do you really think that an all-powerful omni-benevolent would impose ETERNAL DAMNATION on an otherwise innocent being whose only fault is being raised in a different culture with a different belief set? There are over 6 billion people in the world, and 2/3 of them have to suffer eternal death simply because they've been raised to believe something different. Does that seem logical to you, Cody? If you'd been born in the typical Indian household, you would be in the same situation. Think about it.

Now, are you when you say this, are you talking about people who haven't heard about Jesus, or people who have just scoffed at the idea?
I actually was a little confused about people who didn't hear about Jesus being sent to Hell, so I asked my neighbor (he's a second father to me) and I don't really remember his idea, but I'll ask him about it and tell you what he says.
What I do remember includes something about the Resurrection. But tomorrow is Youth so I'll ask him about it.

Another thing to think about is all the good the Church has done (and don't get me started on Catholic corruption). It raises money to help people in poverty, it gives after-school activities to inner-city children to keep them away from drugs and gangs, religion as a whole makes you a better person (also not trying to condescend, sorry) because more often than not, a person's moral code is lax compared to the Church.
Edit: It's alright Nyarf, it'll be a challenge for me! Also, don't take what you see on Family Guy as what religion really is. That is a bunch of b*** s***. Also the name is Graham, not Cody. Cody is my dog's name.

Oh, and as for people going to hell for not believing in Jesus Christ, most people will at some point be introduced to the idea of Christianity. But just like you've been raised in Christianity, they've been raised in other religions and believe them just as fervently. If a Hindu came up to you and tried to convert you, chances are you wouldn't listen because you're firm in your belief. But flip that situation around, and you understand that they've been raised in this religion through no fault of their own, and now most likely will continue to practice that religion for their entire life, despite being exposed to many other religions just as you are. You're aware of Hindus and Buddhists and Muslims and all these other religions, but you've been raised a certain way and so will probably not convert to any of these. Same goes for them and Christianity.

Religion doesn't cause wars, people cause wars. Have you ever seen a Bible with a gun?
If there were no religions, there would still be as many wars; people would just find another 'justification.'

Posted By: nyarfdude

Edit: Trance, you may be partially right about the number of wars staying the same with a different justification. But nothing motivates masses of people more than religion. Any other justification would not be as powerfully affecting to all those people.

I don't know about that one - take a look at all the things we humans have done to other humans just because they're different from us. If it wasn't because they were a different religion, it would be because they had different color eyes, or because they didn't cut their hair, or some other thing that would single them out. For example, Hitler didn't just focus on the Jewish people, he also went after people with disabilities and those who were gay - anyone who didn't fit his idea of the Aryan nation.

The number one motivator is stupidity. Usually, one guy is self-egotistic and powerful enough (back in the Dark Ages it was the pope) to use his power for self-gain. Then, usually a bunch of stupid people listen to him (not a her because women aren't that stupid) and do what he says. The number of idiots who listen to him is proportional to how likable and charismatic he is [or how powerful he is (the pope)]. This is how Hitler came to power, how the Crusades occurred (the pope used religion as a sort of catalyst for conquering Jerusalem), and pretty much every major war in history.
I'd go deeper, but I'm swamped from school and in desperate need of a nap. *Yawn*

I absolutely agree, Udo.

Just 'cause he's all-powerful and omni-benevolent, doesn't mean he doesn't have a sense of humour.

Playing Devil's Advocate, the usual Christian response to your question is that God wants everyone to exercise their free will.

Posted By: Udoboy

Humans rose to the top of the ladder because of our willingness to step on anything and everything in our way.

So a bigger brain, being bipedal and having opposable thumbs were not factors? Or secondary to ruthlessness?

Posted By: nyarfdude

But one of my big questions for the Christians here remains unanswered: Why would an all-powerful omni-benevolent being impose eternal damnation on an otherwise innocent being whose only fault is being raised in a different culture with a different belief set?

(I may have already related this somewhere in these discussion baords) I saw a snippet about this that was really funny. A guy was asking a Catholic Cleric about salvation. The cleric's contention was that one had to accept Jesus as one's Savior in order to be saved. The interviewer asked, "Well, what about the Aborigines in New Guinea (or something) who had never heard of Jesus. Knew nothing about Christ or Christianity or the Bible or anything like that? God has doomed them because He plopped them down in the middle of the jungle and they never got word that they needed to acccept Jesus? The Cleric said, "Well -- no. They get a pass." So the interviewer asked, Why would a benevolent church EVER tell ANYONE about Jesus? People are obviously better off never having the opportunity to not accept Jesus. (I am paraphrasing all this). The cleric had no good response to that.

Also, that goes against exactly what Jesus supposedly said. He literally stated, in no uncertain terms, that anyone who did not believe him to be God was going to go to hell. Some Christian denominations came up with this ridiculous "pass" concept simply because the immorality of what Jesus supposedly said was blatantly obvious when presented with the question I gave above. But nowhere in the bible does it say anything about a "pass" to heaven. People made that up. (But then again, they DID make up everything else, too.)

What about the Tyrannasaurus Rex?? Were they not more ruthless than any member of humankind?? (With the possible exception of The Spanish Inquisiton) Yet we slaughtered them in to extinction due to our more-developed brains.

No, T-Rex was a one-hit-wonder band ("Bang a Gong") from the mid-70s or so. The later Power Station (attempted 80s super-group) cover of the song is a poor cover in that it is almost indistiguishable from the original.

Frodo lives!