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Citation Station: Mathematical Proof Of God's Existence

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      CommentAuthorGeog
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2006 edited
     

    http://www.angelfire.com/ut/a17/lukejohn.html

    Exactly what the title suggests. As of now, I gotta go to bed. I just dug up this link. Anybody interested?

    EDIT: I forgot to mention, the page is long. Ctrl+F for "Absolutivity Section". The really good stuff starts there :wink:

  2.  

    Slightly more rigourous is the opposite perspective, courtesy of the Hitchiker's GTTG.

    Now it is such a bizarrely impossible coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God. The arguement goes something like this:

    "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

    "But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

    "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.

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      CommentAuthorAdinsx
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2006
     

    Well, going strictly by the logic of you both, the Mathematic proof of god's existence causes him to not exist. So, haven't we really just proved god doesn't exist?

    • CommentAuthorcats.pal
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2006
     

    But suppose that the logic that proving god exists does not mean he does not exist. Besides, as logical as Asinsx's statement is, it is not logically possible. God exists, so therefore god does not exist? But if god exists, then he can't not exist.

    That concluded, one statement of the above logic must be incorrect.

  5.  

    No. God exists, therefore God does not give humans proof that he exists.
    But, going by the Christian/Jewish God, all the 'miracles' performed by prophets in any way, shape or form must have been seen by someone if they were recorded. Therefore to those who see (and even more so to those that do) God has been proven to exist. That is, of course, assuming the Bible isn't all made up.

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      CommentAuthorUdoboy
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2006
     

    There are attributions of miracles that are not in the Bible. That's how saints get canonized.

    Now, whether all that's made up ....

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      CommentAuthorAdinsx
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2006
     

    Well, I was assuming that as soon as we prove that God exists he will cease to exist, ergo, proving god is destroying god.

  8.  
    Posted By: Udoboy

    That's how saints get canonized.

    And come, like St George, get fired.

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      CommentAuthoreasyEmu
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2006
     

    Suppose God does not exist in the Jewish/Christian/Muslim sense. Then when a human being dies, it either ceases to exist, is reincarnated, or enters into some sort of Utopian rhealm. None really sound that bad to me, and 100% of the human population would all experience a similar fate.

    Now suppose God does exist in the Jewish/Christian/Muslim sense. If you choose to follow God as outlined in the Torah/Bible/Koran, then you will be infinitely rewarded. If you choose to not believe in God, or reject God, then you will be infinitely punished. To me, it would appear the least painful choice (how to maximize the payout) is to follow God as outlined in the Torah/Bible/Koran; you either break even or experience eternal paradise.

    I read this expectation argument, or at least a similar argument, in a mathematics text (could be The Nothing That Is?). I do not know the original author of the argument, but he was a well known, long dead mathematician.

    Also, I saw recently (within the past year) on PBS that a group of physicists were able to estimate the probability of grabbing a single atomic particle from the air, and then used this number to estimate the probability that the "big bang" occurred. The number was a decimal point followed by MANY zeros; so many, it might be the smallest useful number ever considered. Anyway, the point is, if you offered a mathematician a wager for his life in which 10,000 Euros were on the table and the probability the mathematician lost was equal to the probability that the universe randomly formed, then the mathematician would wager his life without hesitation. However, when eternal reward vs. damnation is at stake, numerous scientists are quick to deny the existence of God; despite the fact that it is almost certain the universe was designed.

    Neither argument is a proof that God exists, but certainly provides very good reason to have faith in the existence of God. Not believing only allows one the privilege of saying "I told you so", but you will not know the answer until your dead, and at that time you will not be able to express your thoughts to the living.

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      CommentAuthorUdoboy
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2006
     
    Posted By: easyEmu

    Suppose God does not exist in the Jewish/Christian/Muslim sense.
    I read this expectation argument, or at least a similar argument, in a mathematics text (could be The Nothing That Is?). I do not know the original author of the argument, but he was a well known, long dead mathematician.

    Blaise Pascal

  11.  
    Posted By: easyEmu

    To me, it would appear the least painful choice (how to maximize the payout) is to follow God as outlined in the Torah/Bible/Koran; you either break even or experience eternal paradise.

    i tried to tell that to an athiest once and he made up some counter-argument..pretty much it said "what about the other religions, like buddhism?" but no other religions seem to have the risk/reward of those 3...so i just gave up on convincing him after that

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      CommentAuthorJoshuaU490
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2006
     

    He didn't compromise his belifs because of some fear-mongering threat of hell, you should be proud of him.

  13.  

    Amen to that! (Bad choice of words on my part?)

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      CommentAuthoreasyEmu
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2006 edited
     
    Posted By: JoshuaU490

    He didn't compromise his belifs because of some fear-mongering threat of hell, you should be proud of him.

    Yeah, I would not advocate comprimising ones own beliefs out of fear, but the existence of numerous religions hardly seems a reason to deny an all powerful being.

    There are so many religions, which one to choose? I can name only one that does not involve man trying to make himself worthy in the eyes of a perfect being through his own devices.

    • CommentAuthorHyp
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2006
     

    God DOES exist, but as a pimple on my left buttock... why he chose THAT incarnation, i'll never know: God moves in mysterious ways..

    unfortunately, i popped God when sitting in the toilet yesterday.

    i'm sorry!

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      CommentAuthorKRistos
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2006
     

    If the artice that the post was founded on does mathematically prove that God exists, then God can't "disappear" in a cloud of logic, because we just proved that he does exist.
    My guess, if this article ever goes mainstream, itll mean that organized religions as we know them will have to change. They can't say "have faith" anymore because faith implies that God can't be proven. If this article does in fact prove the existence of God that will all have to change.

    • CommentAuthorAzaparks
    • CommentTimeDec 21st 2006
     

    There is no evidence of god existing in this article.

    Step 2 - proving that the proof exists

    *quote* 0 = 00 *end quote*

    0 = false 1 = true

    This article therefor proves that god does not exist.

    If the person who wrote the article understood Numm Hypothosis he would know that it is imposible to prove of somethings existance using a Null Hypothosis because as the value of Null approaches 1 (becoming more likely to be true) it becomes possible to reject the theory that Null concerns.

    However when Hyp clames that god is a pimple on his left buttock, if he can prove that he had a pimple on his left buttock he already has more evidence of God being a squashed pimple on his left buttock then this article has given for god existing (not nice but true) :)

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      CommentAuthorFizzer
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2006 edited
     

    Can someone explain where the belief that God would not exist without our "faith" came from? Seems to me being God he would have existed long before us and it seems silly to think anything we would discover for ourselves would effect him. So if we did prove he existed, I doubt it would have any effect on anything other than ourselves.

    Just my musings though :0p.

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      CommentAuthorD League
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2006
     

    I belive organized religion could not exist without faith. By proving that God exists, you wouldn't need a religion to tell you what god is like. You would know.

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      CommentAuthorFizzer
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2006
     

    So it would be the end of organized religion. Sure that would drastically effect us, but I still don't see how that would have any bairing on God.

    As far as knowing. Knowing something exists is a far cry from knowing what it is like :0).

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      CommentAuthorD League
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2006 edited
     

    I didn't say it would. I also find it highly improbable that God could vanish in a cloud of logic. You would think a divine being that sees and knows all would have seen it coming. Perhaps he vanishes in an illogical cloud of logic. (D League looks for hurting brain smiley)
    :wink:

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      CommentAuthorFizzer
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2006 edited
     

    On a side note, how do you spell bairing? I couldn't for the life of me find the correct spelling :0p.

    Ooo and "...divine being that sees and knows all would have seen it coming." also gives me another though, I'll put it in the religion debate thread though :0p

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      CommentAuthorUdoboy
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2006 edited
     

    baring or bearing. I think you meant "bearing" has "it has no bearing" and not baring as in "baring your soul."

    Or Bering, as in the Bering Strait, but that's more geographic. :bigsmile:

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      CommentAuthorFizzer
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2006
     

    Ah yes, bearing, thanks Udo :0).

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      CommentAuthorCody56
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2006
     

    Hokay, so
    1. I define God to be X
    2. I can conceive X
    3.Therefore I can conceive God
    4. Therefore, God exists.

    1. I can conceive of a perfect God.
    2. One of the properties of perfect is exsistence.
    3.Therefore, God exsists!

    http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

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      CommentAuthorD League
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2006
     

    What's to say your X exists in the first place? I also don't see how a divine being relates to a mathmatical variable.

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      CommentAuthorCody56
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2006
     

    have you ever sung the alphabet?
    Can you imagine X in your mind?
    X can stand for anything I want it to. It doesn't have to be just numbers

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      CommentAuthorTrance
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2006
     

    And wouldn't that prove God only exists in terms of X, not in reality?
    Can't that theory prove the existance of everything?

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      CommentAuthorCody56
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2006
     

    First, X does exist in reality so God is equal to X and X is in reality. Therefore God is in reality. And your second question, yes it can prove the exsistence of everything. But, I can also prove that everything does not exist and it is only in your mind. Therefore God cannot exist. But, the God I and the millions of christians in the world conceive is perfect. And according to my second proof, a quality a perfection is existence. Therefore God exists.
    :owned:

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      CommentAuthorTrance
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2006 edited
     

    Just for the record, I'm a confirmed Catholic. If you can prove that everything exists only in my mind, and therefore not in "reality" then isn't it true that the equation proves something I, or anybody for that matter, has thought up and therefore not real?

    Kinda like proving something's a real fake?

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      CommentAuthorD League
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2006
     

    But if you don't exist then nothing can be wrong with you, there by making you perfect.
    :old-owned:^2

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      CommentAuthorCody56
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2006
     

    But one of the properties of perfection is existence and i wouldn't exist so I wouldn't be perfect
    :old-owned:x10^10

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      CommentAuthorD League
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2006
     

    One of your properties of perfection is existance.
    Don't over use the owned button. It'll get old fast.

    •  
      CommentAuthorTrance
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2006 edited
     

    But without existance there's neither perfection, nor imperferction, so you can't be either.

    • CommentAuthorAzaparks
    • CommentTimeDec 27th 2006
     

    so what your saying cody is that if you believe somthing exists then it does

    so when there a cult theiving money because people believe that their god exists (eventhough he is made up for money) then he does exist because people on the cult believe in him - im sorry but that is a load of bull**** :fierce:

    and i exist - so does that make me perfect?? - didn't think so

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      CommentAuthorD League
    • CommentTimeDec 27th 2006
     

    He just said existance was one of the qualities of perfection.

    •  
      CommentAuthorCody56
    • CommentTimeDec 27th 2006 edited
     

    Thank you D League:clint:

    •  
      CommentAuthorCody56
    • CommentTimeDec 27th 2006
     

    Banana Fo Fana

    •  
      CommentAuthorD League
    • CommentTimeDec 27th 2006 edited
     

    :peace:

    "A smiley is worth one or two words" -D League

    •  
      CommentAuthorGeog
    • CommentTimeDec 27th 2006 edited
     

    God does and does not exist in the Tenth Dimension. http://one.revver.com/watch/99898

    Thanks legat, I love that video. Really thought provoking.

    •  
      CommentAuthorKRistos
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2006
     

    If I believe that something exists, let's say pink hippos just to be different. And I live my entire live with the firm belief that pink hippos do in fact exist. Then in effect they do, because pink hippos would have such an effect on the way I interact in the world that to me they are quite real.

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      CommentAuthorD League
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2006
     

    How would that affect how you act? Have these pink hippos told you how to live your life? If they did, is it your belief that they exist or is it that you actually do what they told you that matters?

    •  
      CommentAuthorTrance
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2006
     

    I like that theory, I think he meant that if you believe in the Pink Hippos enough to change how you would live your life if you didn't believe in them(for better or for worse), in a sense they exist and live on through your actions.

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      CommentAuthorD League
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2006
     

    But if you don't belive somthing exists, does that mean it dosen't? For instance, (hypothetical) I don't belive your pink hippos exist, [KRistos]. Who's right?

    •  
      CommentAuthorKRistos
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2006
     

    In you're world of your thoughts and your desires, you're right. I however am right because I believe it exists.
    However from an insightful, neutral third party's perspective that deals only with the "existence" of things on planet earth, you would be right. Until we genetically tamper with hippos and make them pink .

    That's not to say that there couldn't be pink hippos in another part of infinity.

    • CommentAuthorAsmadeus
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2006
     

    Quote from Cody :
    "1. I can conceive of a perfect God.
    2. One of the properties of perfect is exsistence.
    3.Therefore, God exists!
    (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm)"

    This was an argument invoked by Descartes in his book "Discours de la Methode"... But actually, you can't conceive a perfect God, and if you even conceive it, you've conceived that it exists when you've conceived the God itself. That's just like saying : "I conceive that God exists, therefore, God exists."

    -------

    That appart, the Pink Hippos theorie is definitly true, and it applies to God as well, since that's on it that most religions are based, as long as there are no proofs.
    By the way, proofing God's existence would maybe "kill" some faithes, but I think that in most cases, it would make some atheists begining to follow one religion's rule ; and proofing that it exists doesn't mean giving a pattern on how God looks like - it would still leave the choice between the different religions we already have. (since I assume that all the religions end up to an only God, if it exists, or else it would end up in "sacrifying" three quarters of the population... Anyway, the basics of any religion is always "behave correctly and help others", so it's not much of a problem)

    PS : Hello everyone :)

    •  
      CommentAuthorTrance
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2006 edited
     

    That's true, I mean if everybody stuck to the main rules of their own religions, there'd be a whole lot less conflict on Earth, and if everybody followed a religion,and stuck to the main rules, such as love thy neighbour, then even if God doesn't exist, the Earth would be a better place.

    Ps Hi!

    •  
      CommentAuthorMonetdell
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2006
     

    there scientific theories that say santa really can fly without dying, it still doesn't mean hes real.
    using einsteins theory it say if he flys at the speed of light or faster than yes he can travel, but once he gets to the speed of light the laws of physics no longer apply because hes going faster than time itself. but as soon as he goes even a couple of Miles per second slower then he will spontaneously combust.

    • CommentAuthorMilitious
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2007 edited
     
    Posted By: easyEmu

    Suppose God does not exist in the Jewish/Christian/Muslim sense. Then when a human being dies, it either ceases to exist, is reincarnated, or enters into some sort of Utopian rhealm. None really sound that bad to me, and 100% of the human population would all experience a similar fate.

    Now suppose God does exist in the Jewish/Christian/Muslim sense. If you choose to follow God as outlined in the Torah/Bible/Koran, then you will be infinitely rewarded. If you choose to not believe in God, or reject God, then you will be infinitely punished. To me, it would appear the least painful choice (how to maximize the payout) is to follow God as outlined in the Torah/Bible/Koran; you either break even or experience eternal paradise.

    I read this expectation argument, or at least a similar argument, in a mathematics text (could be The Nothing That Is?). I do not know the original author of the argument, but he was a well known, long dead mathematician.

    Also, I saw recently (within the past year) on PBS that a group of physicists were able to estimate the probability of grabbing a single atomic particle from the air, and then used this number to estimate the probability that the "big bang" occurred. The number was a decimal point followed by MANY zeros; so many, it might be the smallest useful number ever considered. Anyway, the point is, if you offered a mathematician a wager for his life in which 10,000 Euros were on the table and the probability the mathematician lost was equal to the probability that the universe randomly formed, then the mathematician would wager his life without hesitation. However, when eternal reward vs. damnation is at stake, numerous scientists are quick to deny the existence of God; despite the fact that it is almost certain the universe was designed.

    Neither argument is a proof that God exists, but certainly provides very good reason to have faith in the existence of God. Not believing only allows one the privilege of saying "I told you so", but you will not know the answer until your dead, and at that time you will not be able to express your thoughts to the living.

    Blaise Pascal only took a literal understanding of religions when he wrote that. Who is to say Baal won't be just as angry as Allah? Who is to say the the Roman Gods are all just as angry and inflict even more pain than God ever can? Anyway, if the universe was created by random chance (there are theories that dispute this and relates it to a "mating" of parallel universes until one works right) and God created the universe, then wouldn't God be more complex than the universe itself? (Complicated things can only make less complicated things) Then wouldn't the chance of God existing by random chance be infinitely less than the chance of the universe existing by random chance? If someone had created God (God is now no longer perfect), then wouldn't that earlier creator be less likely to exist? Then, this continues on a exponentially decreasing probability of God existing

    • CommentAuthorMilitious
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2007
     

    Err, why didn't my quote box work?

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